You never know when it will happen to you. Fentynal taking our peoples lives....

Mario and Wayne sit down and talk about Haley Miller, Mario's cousin who he just lost to a fentynal overdose. Reformed and REEL is about people getting out of incarceration and discussing how the community around them feels and treats them. This personal journey is the story of hundreds of thousands of Americans and people around the world. Lets talk about it!

Transcript

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Mario 0:11

Welcome to Reform in Real, where we take a journey with our people fresh out of prison and how the community around them really feels. We want to know. My name is Mario Hernandez, and I'm one of the afflicted people that got released back into the community, and we're here to try to figure out how this looks.

Wayne 0:26

My name is Wayne Burt, who wants to know about our prison system, get to the stories beyond the stigma of incarceration. And because, like Mario, I believe all stories count. They absolutely do. They absolutely do. Well, you know, I mean, things happen in our lives that cause us to contemplate and uh think about the whole picture. And obviously, I think about like the flavor of some of these episodes, right? Like we've talked about this before. We have a lot of people who have recently got out of prison, yeah, who are on the pathway to making their lives stable, sound, addiction free. But every time we interview someone who so far is doing good, and doing good means you just play for a tie every single day, right? Right. It's day by day by day. You can still feel how tentative it all is. You just have to fight every day. And I think you too are in that position, you know, even though you've done really well. Well, on a somber note, we're here to talk about somebody who didn't get across the finish line.

Mario 1:32

Yeah, I and I think that's what uh what our people already know on the community. And I think uh it's kind of a taboo thing, people don't really talk about it. So um, you know, uh uh it not everybody wins. And um I think a lot of it's got to do with uh, you know, how we get how these people get into the community and how they're received, and that's what what we say in our opening, like and how the community around them really feels, right? Right. How does everybody feel about that? And uh, you know, I lost uh my cousin Haley last Tuesday. Last Tuesday. Um and just so you know, people that are listening that uh uh Haley got out of prison uh three months ago, and uh she came to live at my home. And uh, you know, I I was I had I mean uh it was great. She was such a bright star and a bright light and big smiles every morning when I seen her, and she was so excited. Uh you know, she's uh uh doing uh what I felt was great. Um but there's so much to it that was going on underneath Wayne that I didn't know that in you know the after the fact people were telling me, well, this and then that. Um and I think that might be um you know the uh I guess the consequences of many different parts of somebody's recovery. Right and all the people involved. Yeah. But uh, you know, when it's when people tell us that it takes uh an army to raise a child, um it takes an army to help somebody uh get sober.

Wayne 3:10

I'm sure it does. I'm sure it does. So um how old was she?

Mario 3:15

She was 33. 33. Yeah. Um and you know, it's uh and just beautiful. Yeah, you know, just a beautiful person. Um and i I guess uh there's so much uh to somebody that's an addict that people really don't understand. And our community some people understand it, most people just see the crime what somebody goes to prison for. And some people are hawks about that. They just want people to be in jail, right? And some people love and want to, and I you know, we've I see them all at uh at learning how to live. I see people that come in that are you know, they want to just do whatever they can to help, and they don't have anybody that's influenced or you know, to influence their opinion, like somebody that that's an addict in their family or something. Sure. Um and some people do, yeah. And those people uh, you know, they want to be a part of uh helping people. Um but those people that are hawks are kind of in what I feel is kind of the problem. It's a barricade. Yeah, yeah.

Wayne 4:19

And it probably, you know, when we talk about getting beyond the stigma of incarceration, there are those that foster the stigma of incarceration. Which you kind which brings you into this role, right? Where you understand the subsurface, yeah, right? And um the darkness that comes with that. And then you're able to use your experience to help other people understand maybe a little bit better what they're going through, right? Yeah. Um, but that doesn't mean um we all bat a thousand.

Mario 4:54

No, we don't. And this is proof, uh, absolutely 100% proof. Um, and I kind of want I want to get into this story a little bit. And yeah, some people may think it's uh, you know, a little too much, but I'm gonna tell it anyways. Uh I think the community needs to hear about this. Um so my cousin, you know, she's uh she was working three part-time jobs and trying to float around and and do her thing. Uh uh her history, uh, she lost her mother when she was very young. Uh she already had lost one son. And back in April, she lost another son, 13-year-old. So she had two children. Yes, three.

Wayne 5:40

Lost two of them. Yes. How old was she when she lost the first one? And you know, I I don't expect you to have the exact one.

Mario 5:47

I'm gonna I'm gonna probably say she was in her twenties, and I and I don't know exactly. Um what I do know is uh, you know, uh she lost her mother at a young age, you know, like I said, and she's she was I think she was five or six. I know and uh her mother was somebody that uh I used to party with when I was kids. I was a kid. Yeah. Similar age. Similar age, yep. Yeah. Um so she's the same age as my daughter, almost to the T. I have a daughter her age. And uh um she lost her mother to an overdose as well. Oh, your daughter did. No, my cousin that that passed away, yeah. Got it. Um, so there's there's the base of her pain, right? Uh and and just so much, like in and out of of jail and prison and treatment programs and foster homes and safe houses and all of this stuff that nobody really, you know, uh paid too much attention to. There was a few people, her grandparents, her her grandmother and her aunt and her uncle and a few of our select family, but even even the people that saw it that were in our family, a lot of them just they were just kind of judgy about it, you know, all the ins and outs and all that stuff. Some people loved her through it all. Some people thought, eh, gosh, there she goes to jail again. Yeah, I don't have the time. Yeah, yeah. And that is a shame. Yeah. So this last time she was in prison, um, she lost her her son in April, and I happen to have a uh uh, you know, I'm I I go into the prisons, I'm a volunteer inside of the prisons, and I got in to get her a visit with her uh right after it happened. And you know, I just I tried talking to her and she was very closed off. Um, you know, I was like, hey, so how are you? She goes, Oh, I'm good. I'm good, I'm ready to go home. I just wanted to see, you know, what's uh see how you're doing, and and uh and I said, Well, I just want to see how you're doing, right? I just want to see how you're doing, and how are you? And uh very, very um she was very pained and she didn't really understand her feelings. I know she didn't because she didn't know how to put it out. She had the front, yeah.

Wayne 7:57

So I and this was after the tragedy with her son.

Mario 8:00

Yes, yes, right after, like I was I would say like a week after I got in to visit her. And uh, you know, so I I was talking to her and she says, Well, you know, my family doesn't want me to go to Twin Falls because of my history there in Twin Falls, and I says, Well, you know, and I'm thinking to myself, she's having this conversation, and the whole time somebody's like, I don't I don't know, I don't want to say somebody, but I'm getting this thought in my head that she needs to uh come to my house because you know, I have a nonprofit where I help people that get out of prison. Well, there it is. Yeah, and she's my cousin, so why not? Right. And uh, so I asked her, I said, You want to come and stay with me? Uh I'll take care of you. You know, you can have a uh good, safe place. There's no drugs there, there's no alcohol there, I'll give you a start. And uh she said, Yeah. So one day she got out. And when she got out, she I picked her up and uh told her, I says, you know, don't you don't have to worry about uh rent, you don't have to worry about utility bills because I already had them before you got here. I don't need to break up my bills, right? So, you know, some people want rent money when somebody gets out, but I mean, why would I charge her if I'm already paying my rent, right?

Wayne 9:04

Oh, you yeah, you gotta help her get her feet under yeah, absolutely.

Mario 9:09

So she was on her way, and uh, you know, I uh uh uh over at uh at our at our place learning how to live. Uh uh Danielle helped her get a job at uh uh iHop, and I helped her get a job at my friend's restaurant, Los Betos. Oh yeah, and uh Jamie Sherman over at uh IHOP. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jamie Sherman. Who well he's not at IHOP anymore, but yeah, we had Jamie Sherman on this show. Okay, and one of our good friends. Yeah, uh so you know she's working and she's uh like a man, just chipper, gets up in the morning, every morning, and uh everything's going well. And uh I helped her get a car. Um and you know, she just uh she was moving. And some of the things that were going on behind the scenes, I'll tell you about in a minute. So, you know, uh last uh Tuesday, uh, you know, I get uh I get up for work. Actually, I got up to get up to go to the bathroom at like two in the morning, and I noticed that her light was on. I said, Oh, she fell asleep with her light on.

Wayne 10:10

Yeah.

Mario 10:11

And uh uh so I, you know, I went to the bathroom, went back to bed, and uh got up in the morning, and on Mondays and Tuesdays she works late. And uh I was like, okay, so that day, those days I leave my dog there and she watches, she loves angels, so she, you know, wanted she I would leave him there with her, and uh um at 10 o'clock I go pick him up. And that day I sent somebody else to pick him up. Uh I asked Danielle to pick him up, and she did. Uh I get off of work at 5 30 and I pull up and her car's in the driveway. And I'm like, huh. She must be sick because I was sick. And so I just figured either that or she's not there, and she just left her car there. Um, so I didn't know. And uh peeked in and I saw her laying down in there, and I'm like, oh, she's just laying down. And uh I closed the door and let her rest. And uh I fell asleep on the couch and woke up about eight o'clock and I'd missed a phone call from my cousin. My cousin says, Hey, uh, I called her back. She says, Hey, uh, where's Haley at? And I says, She's in her room asleep. I'm assuming that she's sick. And uh it was the weirdest thing um because uh I just got up and got in the shower and then I got uh I got out and I saw more calls from Erica. She says, Hey, are you is Haley okay? I says, I think she's sick, like I said, because I was sick. Uh let me let me let me call you back. Um And this was later on Tuesday? Yeah, it was just like it was like 8 30 at night. Yeah. 8 8 somewhere between 8 and 8 30, I think close to it. Um so you know, I go in her room and I turn on her light and uh I call her name and she doesn't she doesn't answer, which is weird because whenever I would like say her name, um she would just get up and say, Hey, and tired or not, and I was like, that's strange. So I went up to her and I kind of shook her a little bit. I'm like, Hayley, Hayley. And it just felt weird. And I tried turning her over, and uh uh um she was uh she was stiff right and I didn't I still didn't grasp it, but I looked down and next to her was a straw, a square piece of foil about three inches by three inches, with some burned stuff on the middle and a white baggie. And uh you know, I didn't know what to do. I just obviously I picked up the phone and I called 911. Yeah. And uh um yeah, I don't I mean it was uh truly, truly devastating. Um and yeah, you know, there there's a lot to that, like you know, um I don't know.

Wayne 13:03

Those are the moments that you just get an image in your head and you you know right away it's gonna be a hard one to shake. Yeah, I imagine. Yeah. Yeah. That no one should ever have to go through that.

Mario 13:18

Yeah, no one. I mean, I'm glad it was me because I probably had more strength than most people for that. And I'm not saying I'm like a tough guy, I'm just saying that I've I know this world and uh the world of drugs.

Wayne 13:32

You've been test driven.

Mario 13:33

Yeah, yeah, I've been test driven every I've you know, I've gotten uh, you know, I've I've done drugs my whole life. Uh yeah and that's uh as everybody knows I've been clean. It'll be 10 years, October 20 or October 16th.

Wayne 13:45

Congratulations. Thank you. Yeah, we'll have to celebrate that on a yeah, on a on a more positive note. Yeah, yeah, of course. Besides the shock of discovering that, um what kind of feelings cycled through you?

Mario 13:59

Um gosh, you know, um I think the first feeling I felt was guilt. Um that you didn't do a good enough job. Yeah, that I was she was in my care, like I was taking care of her and I was watching her and I was I was being there for her. I was being the the the friend in recovery that she needed her whole life, and uh and I was a person that could see it from a mile away. That could see somebody getting high from a mile away, and uh I didn't see it. Didn't see it. So, you know, um, you know, there's a lot of people out here in the community that uh you know, they say, I don't know how I missed it. Now I know why they say that. And it doesn't matter if you're a great family, doesn't matter if you're a lawyer, a judge, a prosecutor, uh, you know, a constant construction worker, uh, you know, a farmer, it doesn't matter. We've all lost somebody and we all think the same thing. What could I have done differently?

Wayne 14:59

Yeah, believe you me, I go through that.

Mario 15:02

Yeah, yeah, because you lost somebody as well. Yeah, and uh, you know, I think that uh after the guilt um w came just like a fear of like, how's the family gonna take this? You know, what are they gonna say about me because I was supposed to be her safe spot.

Wayne 15:21

Yeah.

Mario 15:22

And uh you know, it's a it's it's scary at the very least, right? And and I just was my next step was like, okay, I gotta manage all this like real like in an organized fashion. I've gotta make sure that all the uh either the everything gets done that needs to get done when somebody passes away. And I had no idea, um, but I had the first thing that came to my mind was uh I have a friend named Jolie Godfrey, a very good friend of mine. She is uh uh uh funeral director in uh Nampa at Alsip. And uh yeah, and I called her and I said, Hi, hi Julie, how are you? And she says, I'm good, Mario, how are you? And I says, Uh I need I need I need to ask you for some help. And I never thought I'd be asking you for this kind of help. Was that the next day? That was the next day, yeah. Yeah, and she says, uh what can I do for you? I'll help I'll do anything for you. And I says, Well, my cousin passed away in my home, and uh she's at the corner house at the corner right now, and I think yeah, yeah, I need to get her taken care of. And she says, say no more. Um and that was, you know, it it's uh I can't it was Wednesday at some point, and um that same evening, uh and maybe it was the next evening, all these days get together, they were all blended together, but the next it was either that evening or the next evening, she had Haley at her funeral home. She went and she had her staff go and pick up Haley from the coroner's office. And I felt better. Good. You know, that that helped me feel better that she was not just sitting somewhere where nobody knew her and nobody loved her.

Wayne 17:15

Yeah, there's there's a degree of caretaking when you get somebody with a good funeral home. They're uh they're really good at what they do. Yeah, yeah. And we're talking about Haley, uh, you know, the the the trauma of all of it of having someone you love suddenly pass, someone you had high hopes for, someone who seemingly was on the path to a better place, um, but also to um celebrate her life, I think.

Mario 17:44

Yeah, yeah. I think nowadays um there's many, many, many people who have been through this.

Wayne 17:53

Oh, I I I agree, I agree. Well, we hear the common denominator all the time. The broken home part is pivotal to the beginnings of addiction, which, you know, I mean, a classic story is that it begins in your teens, and then who knows where it goes when you continue to need to feed your addiction, right? And prison is a pretty common outcome. Um, was there a father in her life?

Mario 18:24

She had her father, he passed away while she was incarcerated this last time. While she was in, she lost her son, her grandfather, and her father. So much loss. Yeah, more than anybody should have to face. You're right, you're right. Um, you know, and I think that was uh, you know, when I look back, I think maybe that was just God looking for a place for her because you know she was hurt and she didn't she wasn't real good about talking about it. I I tried to talk to her about stuff and she just wasn't really good about it.

Wayne 18:59

She had never gotten to that place. No. Where she just oxygenated all of it.

unknown 19:04

Yeah.

Mario 19:05

So, you know, some of the one of the things that I wanted to talk about is is is everything that happened up until that day, right? So she got out, and uh, you know, there's these things that happen. Okay. Um uh there's this program called the MAT program. M A T. I think it's M M A T, yeah. Um and that program is they're a proponent of putting opiate addicts on uh Suboxen. Like they educate people and they put people on Suboxen and uh that and I and there's like there there I was talking to somebody yesterday who's involved in this program. She says, Mara, there's a science behind it. It makes when people take suboxin it shrinks and gets rid of uh pain receptors, so people don't need that heroin and the opiates, right? And I'm not sure what the science is. Um I'll just tell you that I've never liked that program. Um and I don't think that it's good for our people, but that doesn't matter because it feels like a band-aid. Yeah, it's a band-aid, and it's and it's a weak band-aid at the time. One drug replaces another. Yeah, yeah. And I and I and I'm not talking down on the program. I just I don't understand it. And because of my not being able to understand it, I didn't like it. And I didn't want any part of it. So when Haley had gotten out, she says, Hey, I want to do this program. I says, Don't do it. You've been clean for four years. Why would you want to start taking something right now? Your suboxen was nothing. You did four years without drugs, and you didn't need suboxin. So why do you need it now? And she says, Yeah, you're right, you're right. Well, apparently, um, about two weeks after she got out without my knowledge, and you know, not that I need to be told, but she didn't tell me anything about it. She went and uh talked to somebody about the Suboxin program, and uh, because she said she was jonesing and she wanted to get high. And really, she wasn't jonesing to get high, she needed help, like mental health. She needed to talk to somebody, she didn't need to get high to get away from her feelings and to take stuff to keep her from getting high because she already wasn't getting high. But that's beside the point. Um, so she was put on the program without my knowledge. I didn't know. And I'm not saying that again, I'm not saying that she had to tell me, but I wished I would have known. Because then I would have known she was going through stuff and I would have known what signs to look for. But whomever knew about that didn't say, hey Mario, you know what, you should look out. You know, keep a better eye on her because she's going through it. Right. Right. And that should be part of the MAP program too. Family, loved ones. Uh, you know, there should be, and and I was told in the end that they didn't that there's some kind of like HIPAA-like law that they're not allowed to tell anybody anything. And I was like, so basically you're just gonna let somebody just die inside and uh not tell not let anybody know about it that's caring about them, and then especially somebody they're living with. Yeah, you know, so I never knew any of that.

Wayne 22:19

Because it's clinical, there's some privacy issues. Yeah, yeah. Got it.

Mario 22:23

Yep. So and it's not the fault of the people that did that that was the program. It's the fault of uh, you know, how the government bureaucracy works, right? They put these laws and these rules in place uh for whatever reason. I don't think it's the right reasons, um, and there should be clauses in there somewhere. Um so you know, she was on the program for I guess a couple of months, and I had no idea. And she was doing a very good job of keeping it from me. Um I didn't know. I'll tell you how I found out though. Um I guess like four days after uh no, like two days after she passed away, uh the second day she was gone, I got a phone call from her parole officer. And her pro officer says, How you doing, Mario? And I says, I'm good, I'm okay, you know. I'm just struggling a little bit. I'm about to clean Haley's room and and uh I've been taking out a little bit of stuff. I took out some garbage out of there. And she says, Mario, are you using gloves? And I said, For what? And she says, Well, you should be using gloves because she was on fentanyl and that stuff you can't touch it because you'll get you'll get it on you and you'll get high and it could kill you too. Oh my gosh. Yeah, and I was like, Oh crap, you know, I didn't even think about that. Yeah. So I uh I I says, No, I don't. She says, You know what? Do you you don't have any of that stuff? She and I says, No, she goes, I'm gonna come over.

Wayne 23:50

Yeah.

Mario 23:51

So uh she came over along with another parole officer, and she, you know, they just wanted to know how I was doing, which is a great thing, right? Uh they were they're really like there. Um and they brought me a handful of rubber gloves and uh Narcan. And they says, if you start feeling weird, like you're going out, you better take this. But you should be doing this with somebody. And uh I said, Okay, all right, I'll I'll do that. And they talked to me for a little while, and then she asked me, uh, would you like us to go through her car so we can make sure there's no drugs in there? Uh, so you don't get like, you know, you don't get you don't see it, you don't get it, you don't get it on you. And I says, Yeah, so they put their gloves on, they searched the car, and they went through her backpack and they pulled out a uh a pill bottle with Suboxin strips in it. That's how I found out she was on the program. Yeah.

Wayne 24:40

That's how you found out.

Mario 24:41

So I'll tell you, and this is what people need to know out there, is it wasn't just Suboxin strips, it was Kratom. There was a bottle of Kratom, there was a bottle of Suboxin strips, and there was a roll of tinfoil in her trunk. All the three things that go together. What's Kratom? It's like a it's like an over-the-counter drug that they sell at head shops around here and tobacco stores and stuff. And I don't know exactly what it does to you, but I know that it gets you high. Uh kind of of a similar high as well. You know, really, what the what the heck, you know? And uh um I'm like, I didn't know she was on this program. And her PO says, well, you need to take this stuff to the PlayStation and dispose of it. Uh because we can't take it. And I says, Okay, I'll do that. Um when I decided to get into her car and finish the cleaning, right? So, you know, um, you know, I I I really don't know or understand uh or I'm I can't really picture what I was going through at that moment, but I'll tell you I got angry because I was like uh, you know, this this program that they push um to people instead of pushing the the care. Not everybody, you know, i i it's it you know what I can't I can't begin to explain how angry that made me. Yeah. And uh how I said no, not just to Haley because she didn't need it, but to the people that were trying to give it to her. Yeah. And uh they told me, well, you know, Mario, we can't tell you because it's a privacy thing. And I'm like, okay, but you guys are my friends. I know you people, and you know that she's in my house and she's struggling, and I'm not knowing. Like, why in the world would you not tell me?

Wayne 26:36

All the time, excuse me, you talk about you know, getting people on the on the straight path, being kind of comprehensive, you need a whole support system. Yeah, and so something that comes in a bottle or something that's not a drug is not a support system. It is not. And even if you do it and you don't have those other elements in place, I'm just kind of interpreting what you're saying. And I know it's easy to be a critic, but um it does feel just on the surface to me that it's odd that someone who had been clean for over four years would need to introduce any drug back into their life to my point exactly stay off drugs. Yeah. I mean, because the cold turkey part is the hardest part, it's gotta be, right?

Mario 27:24

Yeah, yeah. And the cold turkey part was over. Yeah. Four years ago. Yeah. So, you know, um, and you know, I I may have, not not may have. I think, you know, I I was I was harboring that in uh the day before the funeral. I had uh my friend come in and uh she was part of that program and she was the one that she was talking to. And uh, you know, I may have misplaced my anger. I said, you know what? Basically, I said, you know what, it's your fault. You know, I didn't tell her that out and out, but and I said, I told you no suboxing. I told you, I told you, I knew this was gonna happen if you did that. And I knew it, and that's why I told you no. That's why I told her no. She goes, Mario, it was up to her to tell you. I couldn't tell you. Well, you know, um, you know, I I I'm I'm I I think that I was a little harsh on her. Um, but uh, you know, who's gonna be nice? And I'm honestly my heart was broken, is broken. And I was like mad at the world about, you know, I just don't get it. I don't get it. And this is kind of Wayne, this is gonna be the crux of some other things coming, right? Because there has to be some knowledge to the family and the friends of the people that are going through this, and especially, man, if you're if you're in the you're you run the program and you know there's somebody that's really hurt, but they're not telling the person that they live with, and so they're not aware of what they're going through. Yeah, you know, yeah, and and and I'm sorry about that. I just you know, it's it's it's just the way it is. Um, so I don't know, man. Uh yeah, and and it's it's when I go into her room, it just makes me mad every time.

Wayne 29:08

Yeah. Well, you have a right to every emotion that comes to you. Yeah, you know, because this is a loss and it's tragic, and you loved her, right? So this is what you gotta do. This is where it is. Yeah. Um but it's so fundamental that you just have to have people helping people, yeah. You know, all that connectivity. Let me ask you, because we hear this a lot in interviews that we do with people that have been incarcerated. Was there a moment where you know she accepted like a a deity into her life or any of that? Did she go through that?

Mario 29:51

No. Um, but you know, I used to tell her uh one time I told her, I said, you know, Jesus loves you, and she said, I know. So I'm assuming that, you know, and and I, you know, I she accepted the concept, maybe. In a way, it seemed like she didn't say, Yeah, I love Jesus, you know, but uh um she knew that I did, and she knew that I was what I was talking about. And um, you know, I I don't know. I just you know, and and you know, we talk about Wayne. One of the things I wanted to go back to is we talk about how the community around them really feels, how people get that, how people receive them, right? Um she had uh one son, uh CJ, and he's I I believe he's about 10. And uh the day that she OD'd was his birthday. Yeah. So um, you know, I didn't know, she didn't tell me. I had no idea. But there was people that did know. And uh, you know, they didn't need to tell me either. But um her when I talk about how the community around them feels and how they receive them and you know, our journey, uh the people that had her grandson would not let her son would not let her see them, see him on his birthday. Um, they're grandparents to the to the baby. Grandparents, got it. And that is gonna be always in my heart, um like confused, scared anger for not just her, but for other people, because why in the world when somebody is out doing the best they can, do you not allow them to see their kids? Women are a man can maybe get by it, but a woman, that baby was born of her womb, and there is a different kind of connection. And if you're not letting that person see it, see him or her, then why? Why exactly? Is it a pride thing? Is it a control thing? Is it a you know a judgmental thing? All of which are bad, it doesn't matter.

Wayne 31:58

Well, it could be fear, yeah, you know. I mean, I I would think someone, and I don't want to put thoughts in their minds because I have no idea, but it's like, oh, she's a bad influence. Uh we don't we don't need him to be exposed to her, but I mean the thing about it is it all comes full circle anyway.

Mario 32:15

Yeah, yeah. How do we not know like that it takes yeah treating somebody good and respectfully and with love, uh that that includes uh all the above. Like you it again, it takes an army, uh Wayne. And you know, it's some people may be mad about this, uh listening to this today, and some people may understand. Um I think maybe the people that would be mad about it are the people that probably are in that same position. So uh, you know, in this uh, you know, in this conversation, I would like to say that, you know, uh people should should pray over it or talk to somebody about it, a counselor about it, before they make the decision to say no. Like don't use your own anger, hate, disrespect, history, uh, all that to make a decision on whether somebody that's getting out of prison gets to see their child or not. Uh look look for help. Yeah. You know, because some people just their anger overrides everything else.

Wayne 33:16

Well, some of it, I think, if you have an an incarcerated person in your life and they get out, you know, you're like, oh, I don't have time for that. Or oh my gosh, what are they gonna do? Or are they gonna steal all my stuff or whatever. But I think the message that you continue to put out in these episodes is that there's not only a support system out there if you have the humility to seek it out, but that it's also being worked on to be made bigger, right? Yeah. Like, you know, you're a connector, you make you multiply your connections every day. I see you do it. I'm like, oh, there's another person in Mario as folded. Yeah, but this is proof positive that it's still not big enough. Yeah. Right. Or that you know, you haven't completely through the work we do here, the work you do at learning how to live, you haven't completely dissolved the stigma. Right. You know, because it's stigma and it's fear, right? It's fear and memories. I'm not gonna let that guy mow my lawn.

Mario 34:20

Yeah, you know, yeah. Yeah. So just uh and and Wayne, if we think about it, let's let's think about somebody that gets out of prison fresh and brand new. And we're talking, uh, I can go and I tell and I've said this before, like I can go into a room in any prison in this whole country right now and say, hey, raise my hand. Who in this world doesn't in this room doesn't want change? If you don't want change, raise your hand. And nobody's gonna raise their hand and say, you know what, I want to be just the way I've always been right here, coming to prison and being an addict, right? So um when people get to learn that when these people get out, they're fresh and ready to rock.

Wayne 34:57

Yeah.

Mario 34:57

And with the support, like the guidance and all that, man, just imagine if uh if people weren't trying to put people into programming like like uh, you know, what I'm not, and I'm not again, I'm not capping on anybody. It's the it's the it's the the drug that they put people on that I'm talking about. Like uh let's let's put them on drugs and let's not let them see their kids and let's not let them get a job and let's not let them get a place to live. And honestly, uh, you know, that's a that's a a fucked up community. Um you know that that's and that's why we talk about what we talk about. It's like, how does a community feel when people get out of prison? Sure. Um, you know, it's it there needs to be some give there. There needs to be some people are like, hey, you know what? This person just got out. That's a brand new baby right there.

Wayne 35:41

Yeah, yeah.

Mario 35:42

And why not be a part of the growth of that instead of the the making it worse for them? Sure, right?

Wayne 35:48

Well, it sounds like restricting access just builds the barricades to someone getting on the straight and narrow, yeah, and it's becoming a productive member. Yeah, and it hurts. Because people don't get out of prison suddenly without feelings, right?

Mario 36:02

Yeah, yeah. And you know, and and I want to talk a little bit, and I want to throw me under the bus a little bit, not under the bus, but talk about my situation. I have a daughter that still doesn't talk to me, and I've been sober almost 10 years, 10 years next month. Um, because her mom talks such bad about me, and there's no redemption in her in her mom's uh uh eyes when it comes to me. Like I'll never be clean. And uh here I've been clean for 10 years. Yeah, and uh and it hurts my feelings, sure, right? That I can't see her, and that I know I see her cute little face on Facebook sometimes, and and just like everybody else that gets out of prison, they think about their loved ones, yeah, and they just want to be a part of their life. Sure. How old is she? Well, she is twenty uh twenty four, yeah, twenty-four. That's hard. Um that's hard, yeah. And she only thinks so bad about me. You know, her mom is like your you know, your dad was a drugie, drug dealer, and you he never needs to be in your life, he's just gonna cause you harm and blah blah blah. And even after I got out and got clean, it's still the same story, you know. It's that she still talks the same about me. And uh, you know, it's like that's what we're here for, Wayne. We're here to try and break that stigma of people getting out of prison.

Wayne 37:18

There you go. Yeah. Well, I wish the worst outcome you could possibly think of weren't part of it. Yeah. But but today it has been, hasn't it? It sure has. Yeah.

Mario 37:29

So yeah, I think uh, Wayne, one of the things that we really haven't talked about is like, you know, the qualities of people. And uh, you know, you just mentioned that to me when we were on a little hiatus for a minute. And, you know, let's let's talk about the great things about Haley and about everybody else. This is not just Haley, this is everybody that gets out of prison as an addict that uh gets out that gets out. And the the sparkle in her eyes was amazing. She had such a beautiful smile and such a great smile. And she was uh, and I never really knew her very well because I just knew her growing up as a kid, and I was, you know, I'm 20 years older than her cousin. Um I'm a cousin, but I'm 20 years older than her, so my daughter is the one that got to spend the time with her. Um, but you know, it's like sometimes we'd have a conversation, I'd look at her and say, Man, you are freaking smart. Like, man, I did not expect that from you. Um, and some of the things that she would say, and uh uh she was just really, really, really on it. And the people that she worked for were like, man, she is a hard worker, Mario. Uh she is a she is a our best server, and she's our best hostess, right? Because she everybody loves her, she communicates well with customers, and she's you know, she's great. Um, you know, and and it's it she was responsible. Who gets out and works three jobs right away? Yeah, that's amazing. And she was just trying to get ahead and trying to like uh prove to the world that Haley is back. And uh, you know, but she had so much under the you know, under stuff going on. And uh, you know, I think about it and I'm like, man, gosh, the pain that she was feeling. Yeah, you know, I just don't know. But you know, in the end, uh I knew that she was a great person. Yeah. And uh she was a loving person.

Wayne 39:17

And that counts. It it it's just too bad that she didn't know other people knew that she was a great person. Yeah, you know, and you've got to talk people through a lot of those narrow passages, right? Yeah.

Mario 39:29

You had that support system. I did, and I still do, yeah. And that's and that's and you know, we can talk about that for a second. Like, my family never gave up on me. My family, as many times as I went to prison and relapsed and got on drugs and they saw it and they were like, gosh, there he is, high again. We're worried about him. Uh, they still supported me when I went to prison, and when I got out, they were there, like, what can we do for you to help you get through this? And the same thing I tell people when they get out of prison and I see their families with them, and they come into our store for resources, and I tell them, I'm like, I'm glad you're here for your son or for your daughter, because that is how they get through this with the support, your support. Uh love them. Let your love be the power to get that gets them over the hump and they never go back to drugs or prison again. Let this be that one time. Uh, and I'm glad you're here. And uh, you know, and that's the message that I'm gonna lead into. If you are out there, and whether you're somebody getting out of prison, whether you're somebody that's receiving them, whether it's a mom, a dad, a husband, brother, sister, like, you know, it's okay to be frustrated with the past, you know, but open your eyes to a different future and let people see when they get out that you're there to support them and love them and let them feel the love instead of just the pain that they'd always felt in their life. Not that it's your fault, but it's our responsibility as receivers of the people getting out to the community to help people get better so we can shrink down the prison system. We don't need any more boxes, we don't need any more warehouses, we don't need any more of that. We need people to help each other get out of that and never go back. Here, here. Well said, Mario. Thank you.

Wayne 41:22

Well, we know full well that the work goes on. It does. Yeah, and I'm really sorry for your loss. Thank you very much. We will keep uh celebrating Haley, but keep doing the work to prevent as many situations like this as possible.

Mario 41:36

Yeah, thank you for uh uh us being able to talk about this today, Wayne. Yeah, good work, good work. All right, everybody. Well, thank you for joining us right here on Reformed the Real. I'm here with Wayne Burt and uh I'm Mario Hernandez, and um remember, love conquerors all. See you next week.