Laura Watson: Inside the BHU at ISCI — The Trauma Behind People In Prison

This week on Reformed N Reel, Mario and Wayne sit down with Laura Watson, licensed clinical social worker who runs the Behavioral Health Unit at the Idaho State Correctional Institution. That's a 240-bed mental health unit inside ISCI, and Laura has been doing this work for 17 years — long enough that many of the residents call her "Mama Watson." She's seen the department change. She's helped change it. And she came on the show to talk about what it actually looks like to do real mental health work behind the walls.

We get into the hard parts. More than a third of IDOC's population is followed by mental health at some level — and Laura puts the number of people carrying real trauma at 90 to 95 percent. Idaho is one of only four states without an insanity plea, which means the most severely ill end up in her unit instead of a hospital. She's honest about why prison therapy is so brutal: "It always gets worse before it gets better," and you're asking someone to go through that sober, without supports, and with no safe room to go cry in afterward. We also dig into the cruel paradox of the system — that access to therapy is easier inside prison than outside, where waitlists run three months and transportation and money get in the way.

Mario reflects on still calling himself "one of us" even after release, and Laura tells him why that matters. The episode lands on a line worth sitting with: "True public safety doesn't happen until people get better." Laura's call to listeners is simple — start normalizing mental health conversations in your own family. Especially with the men in your life. Make "are you doing okay?" a normal thing to ask.

Transcript

Mario 0:07

Welcome to Reformed and Real, where we take a journey with our people fresh out of prison and we want to know how the community around them really feels. My name is Mario Hernandez. I'm one of the afflicted people that got released back into the community, and we're here to try and figure out how this looks.

Wayne 0:21

And I'm Wayne Burt, curious onlooker who wants to know about our prison system, get to know the stories beyond the stigma of incarceration. And because like Mario, I believe all stories count.

Mario 0:32

They absolutely do. And yeah, I think we're uh uh about 24 for 24 saying the same thing.

Wayne 0:39

Yeah, we haven't uh we haven't thought uh we haven't given that second thoughts yet. Yeah, oh well maybe they don't all count. Yeah, yeah. All right. Uh yeah, we have a guest today, and uh we have Laura Watson, clinical social worker at the yard or IDOC. And uh welcome to Reform and Real, Laura. Thank you for having me. Great to have you here.

SPEAKER_03 1:02

Great to be here.

Mario 1:03

Good, good, good. So this is you're we we love it when we have people from IDOC here, um, because um there's two sides to being incarcerated, right? There's uh the person that's incarcerated, and you know, he's got to get out to the community someday, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Yeah.

Mario 1:18

So you see uh them while they're incarcerated, and you are a clinical supervisor, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:24

Yes.

Mario 1:24

So and you work in what unit?

SPEAKER_03 1:26

So I run the behavioral health unit at ISCI. So it's about a 240-bed subacute mental health unit.

Mario 1:33

Okay, and what what goes on in there? How does that work?

SPEAKER_03 1:36

So individuals who are referred to the behavioral health unit are referred by a master's level clinician, and the clinician feels that they either need some um more supportive services, maybe they have intellectual disabilities and they'd be vulnerable in general population, they have significant mental health issues and need a little bit of extra assistance. So everyone who's in the behavioral health unit has an assigned clinician, an assigned psych tech. The psychiatrist sees them there. Medications are brought in-house to them to make sure we maintain compliance. Our officers are all trained in mental health. Um, anyone who bids into the unit has to go through mental health training that I put on. Um, and we have groups in the unit, um, and we do a lot of individualized type treatment plans for these individuals.

Mario 2:18

Yeah, so training those uh staff members that go in there, the correctional officers, is a big deal because it's a delicate situation.

SPEAKER_03 2:25

Absolutely.

Mario 2:26

Yeah, if they they have to understand. And I think uh just like uh if me me being a parent, me being a a uh a parent to a dog, right? You have to know how to deal with them. And as a parent to a child, I mean I'm not comparing them to dogs, but um, you have to learn how to deal with people, meet them where they're at. Because uh most of the people, uh not just those 240 residents that you're talking about, uh, need mental health inside of prison, don't they?

SPEAKER_03 2:50

Absolutely. It's a more than a third of our population we follow by mental health with uh mental health follows them at some level.

Mario 2:57

Yeah, and and do you think you think if I had to throw this out there and uh wouldn't you think more like a hundred percent of the people absolutely yeah some don't the people in this room? Yeah, yeah, me too.

SPEAKER_03 3:08

Every one of us, yeah, right here.

Mario 3:10

Yeah, so and people are broken when they go in. And uh I think that's something that the community misses out on, right? And absolutely not because not not for not because they want to miss out, but I mean it's just a stigma that's there. Um, but we want but they think that uh everybody that goes into prison is just they're just uh some people think they're just bad. Yeah. And they're not because me myself, I was you know, I was beat up a lot as a child. And yeah, when I started offending and committing crimes, it's because I was hurt.

SPEAKER_03 3:38

Yeah. Absolutely. One of the things when I go and guest lecture at Boise State that I talk quite a bit about is that before I came to work in a prison, it was very easy for me to say, look at the crime on paper and just say, Well, of course they should be in prison. They did XYZ, that's where they should be. Um, and I'm not saying that they are they shouldn't be a a period of incarceration, but it's looking at understanding how they got there. It's not a matter of just incarceration. It's how did they get there? How are we gonna help break the cycle? Even those who have significant sentences, they also deserve to help break the cycle, even if their community is only incarceration, even if they have life without parole, there's still a community in there that they're a part of.

Mario 4:16

Yeah, so they have to make it better from the inside.

SPEAKER_03 4:18

Yeah, absolutely.

Mario 4:20

For everybody, for the long-termers and the short-termers, especially, right? We want people to get out better and their environment means everything.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Yeah.

Wayne 4:26

And in the unit, is that part of the work that you do as you get down to the essence of people's stories and uh help develop treatment plans in that fashion?

SPEAKER_03 4:35

Yeah, we have um, so Idaho doesn't have the insanity plea. So we're on the one, we're on only one of four states that don't have the insanity plea. So oftentimes we'll get uh a group of individuals in there who are very, very sick, and it's less about processing because they are they are historically very sick and more about stabilization. Once we can get them stabilized, a lot of times that's just the key, you know, getting them stabilized, helping them understand that they need mental health treatment. And then a lot of them become completely functioning members in the institution when they get out of prison. And then there's others who have much deeper stories, who have much more work to do. Um, and you know, in a perfect world, everyone would be provided with therapy. Um not a perfect world, both inside and outside of prison. Um so some of it's some short-term educational things, and others receive a little bit more in-depth treatment.

Wayne 5:27

So when you encounter certain groups of people, how many of them have never received any kind of counseling or therapy?

SPEAKER_03 5:36

With a lot of the individuals that come into my unit in particular, they have a long history of mental health uh struggles and a long history of treatment. The challenges, they have both a long history of treatment and subsequent substance abuse issues. So it's really hard to do true treatment when you're high, right? Like you're just kind of scratching the surface, you're trying to put the band-aid on it. And so a lot of them have been in a long history of mental health treatment, but truly haven't done it sober, haven't done it with supports, haven't done it kind of the right way, right? Or the healthy way to do it. Um, and then there's other individuals that whether it's um historically with family, whether it's, you know, the way in which they were raised, or just the stigma that mental health treatment, we don't talk about it. I'm fine. But that's also how we get to the cycle of substance abuse. I'm fine, but if I use this, smoke this, drink this, I'll feel better, right? Because ultimately I'm not really fine.

Mario 6:31

Yeah. It's a hard, it's a hard balance, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:34

And it's a hard pattern to break, right?

Wayne 6:37

Yeah. Yeah. So you you have more neutral platform to deal with people in many cases because you're not fighting that extra tide of addiction. Yep. Uh but you have to unwrap it. It would be both at the same time.

SPEAKER_03 6:50

Yeah. I mean, ultimately, um, as with anything, there's a lot of levels of addiction. And sometimes that addiction is even things like self-harm, I consider addictive because it hits a lot of the same receptors as substance use does. So we self-harm to make the emotions go away. And there's always access to something in prison, um, you know, unfortunately. And so sometimes it is even hard finding true sobriety there.

Mario 7:14

Yeah. And pe uh some people's background, I mean, is so ingrained in who they are uh today, like myself, you know, I um the level of abuse that I endured, right? Made me who I was. And still to this day, and I still feel it today, but now I feel, you know, I'm better about it. Um I understand myself more, but some people are just so far so much in pain that it's hard to get through that uh that wall that people put up. And it's easy to put up that wall when you're one of us. Yes. Very easy, and uh that's gotta be frustrating for you. You probably come upon that a lot.

SPEAKER_03 7:52

Yeah, and I think the other really difficult part is if you're doing true mental health treatment and true therapy, it always gets worse before it gets better. And that's really hard to sell to someone, someone who can easily take something to make the emotion go away. And now I'm gonna say, don't take anything, and I'm gonna make you talk about all of the horrible things that you've gone through. I'm gonna talk about the horrible choices that you've made. We're gonna go through the shame and guilt that you feel. You need to do it sober, you need to do it without a lot of supports, you need to do it in a prison environment where you're not gonna necessarily go back to your room and journal or cry. I would love that, but not everyone's gonna do that. And so you already have all of these roadblocks in front of them. So sometimes mental health treatment within an incarcerated sitting is very difficult because of those things. There's no safe space, right?

Mario 8:43

How many what what do you think the percentages of people that uh are damaged inside a prison, uh not just the behavioral health unit, but all over that have gone through something uh dramatic dramatic.

SPEAKER_03 8:56

I mean, this is not uh anything like I'm coming up with real statistics, but I would say at least 75% of our population, and just with the people that I deal with, it's it's a pretty good portion. And sometimes even incarceration itself can be really traumatic. If you're arrested at a very young age and you get taken away from your family, you know, a lot of kids go through incarceration in the juvenile correction system, they don't have a lot of family support. So even though the trauma may not necessarily be, you know, like a death or abuse or anything sexual, sometimes trauma is the loss of significant importance in your life, right? Um, and and sometimes people grow up with just surviving.

Mario 9:36

Yeah, that's that's a really a big deal for those of us that um me. When I when I say us, I mean me, because I'm I still as much as I get people telling me that they don't think I should be identifying myself as uh still uh a prison number, I still do because so that's what when I say that that m we um that's what I mean is like we are we're just we're that way, we're hurt, we don't know how to manage anything, and we've been through so much. And I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna uh I'm gonna up your bid. I'm gonna say closer to like 90 or 95% of the people and have been through something traumatic. And some people just don't know that it's traumatic until they do go through the program, like at the BHU or any one of the programs at the at the facilities where they can actually identify that, hey, you know what? I did go through some stuff.

SPEAKER_03 10:24

Absolutely. And I appreciate the fact that you still refer to yourself as one of us, right? One of them, because I think the thought shows not only how far you've come, but what you took to get there. And it helps you identify with those people who are coming out too, because once you separate yourself from that, sometimes you forget where you came from, right? So I think it's really important that you still you're able to separate yourself at some level, but also recognize that I came from there, right?

Wayne 10:47

Yeah. I recommend a weekly podcast. I think we've been doing that. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. We have months of reminders now for you anyway. Uh so on this, you you say, Laura, that you've been doing this for 17 years. Yeah. I and the same work at IDOC.

SPEAKER_03 11:05

Yes. I um I started in juvenile corrections and I did that for a couple of years and then transitioned to adult corrections. And I've been at ISCI most of that time, not the entire time, um, but most of that time I've been in the BHU. I think about 14 of my 17 years I've been in the B Behavioral Health Unit.

Wayne 11:24

So in that time, you must have the experience of sort of what it's like to create a new culture. So you you maybe when you get new intakes, you don't start from scratch quite as much as you used to. I mean, does the culture tend to sort of trickle out into the in into the facility community? So the work gets a little easier. It's never easy, I know that.

SPEAKER_03 11:47

But yeah, I wouldn't say the work got a little easier. I think that um I I do agree that a lot of people get out, they move out of their unit, they go into general population, and you do start to create like a different culture. Um, but there is so much movement within the the prison system um that I think that sometimes even when you get pockets of good culture, you're having to constantly reform it all the time. Um, but I do think that um since I've been there for such a long time, I've seen the department move in so many very positive ways. Of um it used to be like if I'd ask for something a little outside of the box, it would be a lot of back and forth and that, you know, like no. And then there's me. If you can help me understand why the answer is no, I can accept that, but I can't just accept because that's how we always do it. And that's kind of how it was, you know, many, many years ago. And now it's mostly like I appreciate the fact that you've probably thought about the pros and cons. We'll support it. You know, if it goes wrong, we'll put we'll put things back together and we'll figure out what to do. So there is so much more support and understanding of the needs of these individuals and really trying to um make it more like a community. And I think that that overall has helped the department and those incarcerated um have a different feel to it for sure.

Mario 13:05

I had somebody tell me, so I did a video for uh um all the districts in the state. I'm not gonna put them on front street, but this guy said he says, we're in the people business and uh it's okay for us to build a relationship with somebody that sits across from our desk in order to have that level of understanding and the ability to like to to look at him eye to eye and say, Hey, you know what, I understand you. So um that what he said is that that's true. Like it's a we're in the people business. It doesn't matter um if you're a guard, a CO, or if you're a clinician, or if you're a nurse, or if you're a warden, um, there's people involved. And the I think and now it's I'm not putting this on them, but the better people get treated, the better they act.

SPEAKER_03 13:52

I 100% agree with that. You get in what you put out, right? And and I think that when you start to create a culture where there's mutual respect, and part of that mutual respect is for me um personally, is I will call you out. Yeah that doesn't mean I don't care, but just because I care doesn't mean I'm gonna let things pass. And so it's it's kind of a running joke. Many residents in the BHU call me Mama Watson because I'm kind of like a mom where you don't want to, you know, you don't want to make me mad because Mama Watson will come at you and she'll hold you accountable. And at the same time, if you want to come to my office and you want to cry, and that's how many of our therapists are. Like we will hold you accountable and you know, we will make you toe the line. And also we will be there when you want to come in, when you want to cry, when you want to process. And it's when you are ready, because oftentimes we can provide them the resources and they won't engage. And there's only so much we can do, right? You have to be ready, just like I'm sure you can attest to when it comes with addiction. Doesn't matter how many times someone says stop using drugs, right? Until you're ready, you are going to keep using drugs.

Wayne 14:58

Um, let's go back. Uh, how did you get started? Where are you from? Tell us a little bit about your story, and then how did you get into this line of work?

SPEAKER_03 15:07

I kind of fell into it, to be quite honest. I started doing private practice and doing a little bit of everything. I did individual therapy, I ran a clinic, I did CBRS in the community, and um, I had been at the same place for a very long time and decided I wanted to try something new. Um, and so at the time, the juvenile corrections had an opening in the solutions program, which was a dual diagnosis mental health substance abuse program. It was brand new. And uh I went there for a couple of years, and it really wasn't my cup of tea. And mostly, and I think this is the same as we talk about my my role into um adult corrections, but it was mostly because we'd spend all this time providing all of this assistance and deep therapy to these individuals who kind of got out to the same dysfunction. And out of the 12 juveniles I started with in that program, male juveniles, I've seen 11 come through the adult correction system. And so, um, and a part of that is the lack of supports upon release, right? Um, and when you're dealing with kids, you have a little bit less control over that. Um, and so um there was an opening in adult corrections, and I'm like, well, I might as well try that. Like I kind of like the corrections aspect and um got hired. And honestly, it's been, it's been a calling. I even left for a small period of time a few years ago. I'm like, I've been there for, I think it was about 14 years at the time or 13 years at the time, and I said, maybe I should try something new. Like I've been there forever. Maybe I'm getting a little rusty and um left and did um some more juvenile things and uh came back. And it's just, it's it's really been my home. It's where I feel connection, it's where I feel peace, and it's really where I feel so convicted in changing the narrative of those who are incarcerated and that they deserve all of the help and treatment regardless of the choices that they've made. That doesn't negate someone's ability to have treatment. So that's how I found myself in in corrections.

Wayne 17:05

You feel that pull inside. Absolutely. Yeah, that's that's the bellwether of doing what you love. That's great. Are you from Boise?

SPEAKER_03 17:13

I'm from Idaho. Yeah, I grew up in Twin, um, and then I've been here for Oh, that's my hometown.

Wayne 17:19

Okay.

Mario 17:22

It ends up well for twin people. Yeah, circled back. Yeah. Um, you know what uh we were talking about it during the break. Um, that when people call you mom, yeah, uh, that's important uh because uh it does do you feel really good when people do that? Isn't that good?

SPEAKER_03 17:37

Yeah, I it's a really good feeling because I I do um I'm a mom as well. And so, and I know part of being a mom is uh is having that balance of you know, love and concern and care and also, you know, accountability and how many times have you seen the look that somebody really feels good about you caring? I am blessed to say I feel like I get a lot from my job. I I really feel that in return. I've cried with residents, I've been there with them, I've gone to their graduations, and um, it is you do take ownership in that, like we work together, right? Like I was your support, I was the person you found. And it could be anyone else. It's not because I'm good at what I do. It's because sometimes someone listened and someone cared, but sometimes it could be anyone. And I just happen to be um the vessel, is what I tell the inmates who are leaving who are always like, Thank you so much. If it wasn't for you, and I say, and my clinicians say the same thing. It's not me. I was just the vessel. You did all of the work. We just provided a little bit of that foundation for you.

Mario 18:39

Yeah. When you're talking to somebody inside of prison, do they talk different than somebody out in the community?

SPEAKER_03 18:43

Yes. And I have realized I don't think I could ever be a community clinician again. Because I don't, I always say I don't know how to be nice, but it's just a different kind of nice. It's just raw and real. And sometimes, like when I go to therapy, I don't want my clinician to be mean to me. And sometimes I feel like I'm mean, but I'm mean in a sense of like, we don't have a lot of time. So we really have to get to it because you're gonna get out soon. Yeah. And so I can't spend a year like, you know, fluffing around things.

Mario 19:11

Out here might be a little more tiptoe, is what you're saying. Correct.

SPEAKER_03 19:14

Yeah, in the community.

Mario 19:16

That's a good place to be, and being that you care. Obviously, they call you mom. Yeah, but being that you care, that makes people feel better. I know when I was in prison and I spoke to a a a clinician or a case manager or a CEO, and um, I can always tell when they don't give a crap.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

Yeah.

Mario 19:33

And that was um, when you see it, it's like, ah, you know, and that's what causes the us and them factor, right?

SPEAKER_01 19:40

Yeah.

Mario 19:40

And it can't be that be and even though uh, you know, and I'll go back to the to this phrase, hug a thug. You get you hear that all the time where people think that if you're nice to people inside of prison, you're hugging a thug.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

Yeah.

Mario 19:52

And really what it is is just like people being people. Being human. Yeah. And uh people in prison are just uh we're damaged. And we just even if it's not like family love, just for somebody to care about you is important. And that makes you want to be better.

SPEAKER_03 20:07

Yeah. And I think that we don't understand sometimes those small things that make people feel human. You know, when I first started, as I'm sure you know, very strict rule, no touching, very formal. And so I would interview residents who were applying for jobs that I oversee. And um they'd get up to shake my hand and I would say, I can't shake your hand. And it felt so, especially as a therapist, it felt so dehumanizing and awful. Like I understood why for many reasons, but also struggled to truly understand why, because it was such a human thing. So now it that narrative has changed quite a bit with the department, which, which are some of those things I really appreciate. Now we shake their hands, you know, they can call us by our first names, which has been a really hard transition for me. No, I think two inmates call me by my first name because I've been there so long. And even for them, I'm like, I'm happy to call you by your first name, but I've known you for 17 years and I only know you by your last name. And so, you know, it's usually the newer people, but uh, but it is a change in the way we we um kind of humanize people.

Wayne 21:11

Yeah, and to good effect.

SPEAKER_03 21:13

Absolutely.

Wayne 21:13

Yeah, absolutely good effect. In the course of being inside, like this is for you, Mario. How how many times do you go see a clinician? Like, like how often were you in front of a clinician? Only when I asked for it.

Mario 21:26

And uh so that's different for me than somebody that was put in the behavioral health unit where they're they're getting help from a clinician clinician. Um a couple of times I s I wasn't feeling very good about myself, and I'm like, I need to talk to somebody. And um I'm not sure why I just I'm just depressed and you know, I know I'm in prison and I can't be like happy, happy, happy, but you know what, you still can be. And uh so I was just trying to figure out what was going on with me. But um the and I and this is not to this is not a knock on DOC. This is a knock on the budgeting in this in in in the prison system is that um there needs to be more clinicians for more people not just in the behavioral health unit but outside of the unit um because sometimes people just want to talk and it happens all the time. I've seen it a million times where somebody says I'm having a bad day. Yeah. And um sometimes when there's a whole room full of people that are having a bad day it's not good. Yeah. You know bad things can happen. Fight can happen. Arguing can happen. Sure. Uh everybody just like uh so many times I've seen it and I've been a part of it where I say hey man I'm really having a bad day. My mom's doing this and before I even finish my sentence the guy on the other side of me says yeah you know what I've been doing this thing too and I've been going through this. Everybody just wants to unload. Yeah. You know and it's like it's everybody. And I think it's just it's just uh that's my my criticism is um you know I hope that someday uh the legislature will see the need for there to be more clinicians inside of the facilities to help people get better. I know that uh you know um public safety is important in in corrections and I had somebody else tell me in uh administration once they said uh public safety is my most important thing but true public safety doesn't happen until people get better.

SPEAKER_03 23:21

Yeah and I was just like agreed that is an amazing statement he made and this guy is I mean you know him and I'm not gonna say his name but uh he gave me a a a different perspective on that and yeah when people get better that's when people get safer yeah yeah yeah because they look into themselves and they figure out why they weren't better so to say to begin with right I think if there's a mantra to the course of the show that might be it 'cause because we hear it and it's the one that really resonates.

Mario 23:51

Yeah we're blessed to have some very good people that come in here and you know I think that uh the other side that the side that where people are damaged that you're that you're involved with is so important. And uh I think that most of the leadership sees not not most all of the leadership sees the need for uh clinicians and and support like that. Um and without getting too deep in the weeds again but that's not a that's not a DOC thing. That's a legislature thing.

SPEAKER_03 24:21

Well and really it's a community thing too because um you know I think that um you likely overheard me when I spoke at Boise State and I said um oftentimes I feel like access to treatment is far easier in prison than it is in the community because everything is right there. You don't have to find a ride. You don't have to schedule something you don't have to figure out funds for mental health treatment. Mental health is no cost, not even when they put in requests. So and so it's like here's your opportunity to use it. And so some of the challenge we have is that we get them to a decent place and the resources in the community are so scarce right getting into therapy sometimes takes so for for us we have standards we have to follow. So someone puts in a request to see me I have to see them within 14 days two weeks have to see them right it's audited we check it in the community even I call to make an appointment for a therapist they're like we're three months out right and so like I I wish that oftentimes residents coming in realize like this is the time to access these things. And I think sometimes because of the stigma they're like I'll get sober here I'll do my time and I'll seek help when I get out and unfortunately that's not always the time to do it.

Wayne 25:33

And this is where the connectivity comes in I think and the stuff that you do right Mario I mean the more people we interview the more resource resources we can connect the more needs that can be identified it makes a huge difference.

Mario 25:45

A great thing that we have like just in this circle we have DOC we have uh learning how to live and we have Radio Boise yeah and for I mean for anybody that's listening like if you're looking for a resource um whatever it is if you you can call Radio Boise and they have a long list of resources.

SPEAKER_03 26:02

Yeah and uh you know those of us that are incarcerated formerly incarcerated on probation or parole we can reach out to our parole officers and the parole officers nowadays are pretty good about helping people right yeah and I think that's where a lot of that training has come in is just helping people understand that you know mental health is is normal for everyone everyone struggles. It's not just the mental health issues we all have human emotions that we have a hard time with and we all need support and we all need resources.

Wayne 26:29

Yeah so Laura BHU has grown quite a bit it's you you're able to do some things that you weren't able to do before you're very satisfied with your work where do you hope it heads um I think you know I've spoken to this in in many aspects but I think what I hope is not only for our incarcerated folks getting out but when I have opportunities like this, my goal is to change the narrative it's to help the community, the broader community understand that, you know, people who are incarcerated are not bad.

SPEAKER_03 27:00

You know, people who are incarcerated have made some bad choices or have made some poor choices but I firmly believe we're all one poor choice away from being incarcerated. And so I think part of where I hope this goes is that the communication and the conversation continues where, you know, as we were speaking about before the show that when someone says can they work there can they live there now if I'm a business owner or I'm an apartment manager, now I have a second thought of like well I I guess maybe they're not that bad, right? Maybe this is something that I had in my mind because of I watch Lock Up Raw every day. And that's kind of the the picture of what I think of incarceration. That's what I thought before I went in and I was like what is this place right?

Wayne 27:43

That's what I thought before the tour a little bit.

Mario 27:46

I took him to tour with Chad Page it was pretty cool. Yeah I went back into the B in in the 15 house and it was you know how it's quiet in there?

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Yeah.

Mario 27:55

And I was like and he's like oh it's quiet in here I'm like yeah it's weird when you're when you're inside of the cell 23 hours a day it's like you're looking out the window and you're like what's going on? Where am I going? Took you back some places didn't it? Yeah yeah yeah I felt a little weird after it. Yeah so um if you had anything to tell people out there uh that are listening, whether it's a community member, somebody in active addiction, a family member of somebody that's in prison, um what do you guys say about mental health uh and and the help that you give in the prison um I think uh a a really big thing that I want people to take away is that if we just work as as as mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers to normalize mental health, to say it's okay to reach out for help.

SPEAKER_03 28:40

If your you know child calls you and they're on the other side of the fence and they say I'm struggling, rather than just saying you're gonna be okay, open that door to say, go ask for help, seek help, encourage it. Because I think when we have family members who maybe never encouraged it before and now they're starting to encourage it, even if maybe they wouldn't go do it on their own, but they're starting to normalize it, then we make it normal. We make mental health treatment normal and it's not something that's so stigmatized and working with males, we have a long way to go. I mean unfortunately we have a very long way to go. It's still very stigmatized. And so I would love everyone to just have that communication are you doing okay? Not just calling and say what happened at prison today, but that simple like are you doing okay? Can I help? Just normalizing the emotional conversation.

Mario 29:28

That's a pretty amazing statement. Yeah it is a family if once a family can help that process and you know not everybody's got healthy families out there but I think they're just hearing this and maybe hopefully it puts a bug in somebody's ear. Yeah because we all you know we're all here together we all people got to get out um sometime and be your neighbor and uh and being vulnerable right so like even if I'm on the other line um and I'm the parent maybe if I'm the one to say I'm having a hard day today I'm feeling kind of crappy today like I was a very stressful day.

SPEAKER_03 29:58

So if I start to make the emotional conversation more normal it helps people be more vulnerable and we just have to really get into that vulnerability with all of us.

Mario 30:07

You're here you said something really awesome a little while ago we're getting close on time but you said um that the juveniles get out and uh they have to go back to the same environment because they don't have much of a choice.

SPEAKER_01 30:19

Yeah.

Mario 30:20

Same goes with adults in most cases right they got to go back home and it's the same family member that they were you know raised with and whatever it is that for that. So I think that uh I when we're talking to people whether it's somebody out of the community or somebody inside that we don't have to keep doing that.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

Yeah.

Mario 30:38

We can go somewhere else and we can uh seek support and and build a support system that cares because there are people out here that care. Um so you know my my advice along with yours is just reach out to somebody and uh you can reach out to like I said Radio Boise will give you a long list of resources. Learning how to live we have lots of resources and you guys of course inside of the institutions have uh resources that you give people for they get out. So uh let's all step up our game and uh be there for people right be part of the community. Yeah yeah love it yeah love it all right well uh uh thank you very much for being here thank you for having me it's been honestly a great conversation because I'm a mental health guy I have mental health problems well I you know I sort of sense this would be a winning formula when I saw you in April very terrific so yeah feels great so uh thank you for joining us uh and thank you for joining us right here on Reformed and Real and uh it's been great we'll see you guys next week and uh I'm Mario Hernandez I'm Wayne Bird and uh we'll see you around the bench until next time